What does it really mean to sell, and lead, with integrity? In this episode of Ask for Change, I sit down with Mark Hunter—also known as “The Sales Hunter” and my partner on the Sales Logic podcast—to talk about why integrity isn’t just a value, it’s a competitive advantage.
In a world filled with uncertainty, pressure, and constant change, it’s easy to chase quick wins. But as Mark shares, the real path to long-term success is playing the long game—anchored in trust, transparency, and doing what’s right (even when it’s hard).
Here’s what we break down in this conversation:
- Why integrity matters more in uncertain times
- The biggest mistakes salespeople make (even when they think they’re doing the right thing)
- How to build trust through transparency and “showing your homework”
- What it really means to put the customer first, even if it costs you the sale
- How leaders create a culture of integrity (and where it often breaks down)
- Sometimes, the most powerful thing you can do in sales… is walk away.
If you’re a leader, entrepreneur, or sales professional navigating pressure, quotas, and uncertainty, this episode will challenge you to rethink how you define success and how you achieve it.
Transcript:
Ask For Change: Integrity First
Introduction:
00:00
Change isn't just coming, it's already here. This is Ask for Change podcast, hosted by leadership expert
Meredith Elliott Powell, brings you weekly conversations with leaders and experts who are redefining
success in a world of disruption. Let's begin today's journey and turn uncertainty into your competitive
advantage.
Meridith Powell
00:22
Let's turn uncertainty into your competitive advantage. I got to tell you, I am thrilled to welcome to the
show today, probably one of the most well-known and most well-respected voices in the sales arena.
And that is none other than Mark Hunter.
Meridith Powell
00:37
the guy who is known as the sales hunter and also known as my partner on the Sales Logic Podcast. Mark
has been in this business a long time helping sales professionals and leaders drive the results, but drive
them the right way through trust, authenticity, and what we're going to talk about today is integrity.
Mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Hunter
00:58
Hey, thank you so much. And it is it's a privilege to be able to do sales logic with you each week. I have
high respect for you. So thank you for inviting me onto your show.
Meridith Powell
01:15
Well, I am excited to talk about your new book. I mean, you've got a lot of really great information out
there, but your newest book, Integrity Selling. And I got to tell you, Mark, I think this was
Meridith Powell
01:21
This was really the book that you were meant to write because when I think about you and I think about
sales, I think about you are truly the person in the profession who is about doing sales the right way. So
let's kind of start there. I mean, why integrity and why of all the times you could have written this book,
you've always been about integrity and sales. Why now?
Mark Hunter
01:43
Well, I think the time is right. I mean, you look at all of the chaos and uncertainty that we have in the
marketplace, and it's been building over the last 5, 10, 15 years, and it shows no sign of slowing down.
And what does that mean? That means it's an uncertain world, but it means more than ever we
individually,
Mark Hunter
02:05
have to be able to hold our ground. And I think integrity is without a doubt how we have to respond and
we have to demonstrate. Now, what's funny is you can't talk about integrity. You just live it. You live
integrity. And when you do that, it's amazing at how it changes conversations. It changes the dialogue.
Mark Hunter
02:26
And it changes the comfort in people because, you know, how many times have you talked with people
dealing with change and they're anxious, they're hyper, they are just tied up in knots. And I think by
demonstrating integrity, living integrity, we can just calm the waters a little bit. We're not going to
change the waters, but we can calm the waters to be able to navigate the marketplace. What exactly,
how do you define integrity?
Mark Hunter
02:55
Well, it's defined really, which what you set is your standards, but let's set a couple of parameters. First
of all, it's playing the long game. You have to be willing to play the long game. And this is where so many
people get into trouble. If you think about, you know, uncertainty, people make rash decisions and they
regret them later on. And integrity is about looking at the long term playbook. What's it like? And then
putting the other person first.
Marl Hunter
03:24
and being balanced in your perspective because integrity is A, people know where you're coming from
and they know that's not going to change. In other words, your standards that you've set for yourself,
you do not deviate from them. And that becomes the North Star that other people look to. And that is
absolutely huge when you're dealing with all this change that we have out there. Think about a boss.
Think about your boss.
Mark Hunter
03:54
Two bosses that I've had in particular in my career, both of them had incredibly high levels of integrity
and they were anchored. They were anchored. And in both those situations, we went through very
uncertain times. But these people led the organization and led it well and navigated us through these
challenges. Do you think uncertain times
Mark Hunter
04:19
make people go away from integrity, that it is something that maybe is easier to do in calm economic
times. What's your thought on that? Sadly, I think you're correct. I hate to say it. You know, it's like
anybody can lead when times are easy. It's when times are tough that leadership becomes tough.
Mark Hunter
04:41
And I think, yes, in uncertain time, this is when integrity falls by the wayside because people see a quick
win, a shortcut. They can step on this person. They can do that. And they really fail to look beyond. You
know, let's use COVID as an example. I mean, so many things changed during COVID. And there was a
time during COVID when we all thought, is it ever going to get back to normal? It did. It did. It did get
back to normal.
Mark Nunter
05:09
And this is the thing that I think when you are demonstrating integrity, you just have a little more of a
balanced head on your shoulders and you're taking a long term perspective. But here's the whole thing.
You don't hesitate to call out the challenges and the problems. You're not running from them. You're not
you're not covering them up.
Mark Hunter
05:32
you're willing to confront them but you confront them in a very balanced perspective to ultimately you
know think about it it's it it's the coach on the sideline who the team is having a very difficult time but
they remain calm they remain calm and they're able to navigate the team through a difficult situation on
the field or on the court or whatever
Meridith Powell
05:55
Is, you know, when you came up with this idea, I don't even want to say that because I know you have
always been about integrity, integrity selling. What made you choose now of all the times you could have
written the book? I mean, sales, do you think that it is more, is it something that you've seen void in the
marketplace? I mean, what was your calling to push to bring that back in?
Mark Hunter
06:19
Sadly, I see it be void in the marketplace, whether it be business, whether it be political, whether it be
just society in general. I'm not throwing stones at anybody because the only person we can we can't
control is ourselves. That's it. And it's funny, but I've had the idea to do an integrity book for several
years, but I held off on it because I had to make sure that am I responsible?
Mark Hunter
06:45
demonstrating integrity. I mean, you got to kind of do some soul searching. You know, if you're going to
put something out there, you better make sure. And even when I was writing it, I had some situations
where, oh, I made some major mistakes and I've got to really call them out and correct them. And one in
particular, I talk about it in the beginning of the book because it happened really right when we were
about done writing the book.
Mark Hunter
07:13
And I had to go back to two clients and say, hey, you know what? We are double booked and no excuses.
No, you know, just had to go do it. Basically, I was being asked to be in two cities on the same day. Not
going to happen. I don't care how you do it. But I had to have a full, wide open conversation with both.
And both of them said, hey, you know what? Yeah, you've demonstrated how you're going to handle this.
And we did. And yeah.
Mark Hunter
07:43
I had a CEO of one of the companies come back and say, you demonstrated right here what you talk
about in your book, Integrity. And that was comforting. That was like, okay, I did the right thing. No
excuses. Just say, I blew it. And that's, I think, one of the ways that we demonstrate integrity. is when you
make a mistake, you just, you just fess up.
Meridith Powell
08:03
You own it. I was interviewing a gentleman yesterday on my podcast and he was talking about the
importance of that in leadership that, and he was saying right before he'd come on the podcast, as a
CEO, that he had made a mistake and to go in front of his team and say that I've made, you know,
Meridith Powell
08:17
a mistake and to own and to own that and to, you know, and to and to take, you know, and to take
responsibility. But what does integrity look like in sales? Like, how does it show up? If I'm listening to this
right now, and I'm I'm a leader and I'm questioning whether we really have the amount of integrity in the
sales team that we need to have, what does that look like?
Mark Hunter
08:38
Well, let's call the elephant out in the room. If you're not the right person to help this customer, you get
somebody else in there, even if that means recommending you to a competitor. Whoa, that hurts. But
here's what I'm going to challenge. And I've seen this happen too many times where a salesperson will
force themselves into a company. We can make this happen. We can make this happen. And what
happens is the sale gets made, but it never gets delivered to really achieve what the customer is looking
for.
Mark Hunter
09:07
and customer service after the fact, whatever. There's all kinds of issues, all kinds of problems. And as a
result, the margin in the sale winds up becoming decreased because additional costs have to be
additional expenses and so forth. So in other words, the customer is never happy. The salesperson got
the sale, but it doesn't happen. So if I refer this out, if I send this to somebody else and maybe give it to a
competitor,
Mark Hunter
09:31
Two things happen. One, that customer is absolutely going to say, wow, I can't believe how Meredith was
so willing to refer a competitor in here. And so what does that customer, that customer thinks more
highly of you, which means, you know what? Chances are there's another conversation.
Mark Hunter
09:50
And oh, by the way, the other competitor, they're going to be shocked, too. And you know what's
interesting? It does change the dynamics in the industry with which you are working. So don't have that.
That is probably the biggest thing. The other thing is this. It's transparency.
Mark Hunter
10:05
I've been sharing this a lot. Show your homework. Show your homework, especially if you're in a long
sale. If you're in a long sale and it's very technical, a lot of performance factors and so forth, and you're
coming up with a solution. Integrity centered selling is about showing the customer your homework.
Here's how we came up with this. These were some other options we looked at. This is what we're
recommending.
Mark Hunter
10:28
And again, customers appreciate that because you're doing full disclosure and you're sharing with them
what's going to work and what's not going to work. And that creates a level of trust, which what does
that do? It actually minimizes the negotiation because the customer is so satisfied with you that they're
willing to buy from you and they pay a higher price.
Meridith Powell
10:52
So how does a sales leader or how does a CEO, how do you create and how do you develop a culture of
innovation? I mean, of integrity? How do you ensure that your team is behaving that way?
Mark Hunter
11:09
Well, it starts with you as a leader. If you're not demonstrating integrity, don't think that your people will.
Because I'll tell you what, this is just like a parent-child relationship. It's amazing how kids reflect their
parents very quickly.
Mark Hunter
11:23
And so you have to demonstrate integrity. And it's the simple things. If you say you're going to do
something, you do something. You don't sit there and say you're gonna do something and you do it. You
demonstrate integrity by not talking negatively about your other people on your team to other people.
No, you keep things on a positive lens. In other words, you don't throw other people under the bus.
Same thing with customers.
Mark Hunter
11:50
You go in and you elevate customers. You don't denigrate customers or talk about customers negatively
behind their back. I'll give you a very quick example. You travel a lot. And I'm sure there's been times
when, you know, you're using the restroom in the galley and the flight attendants are are.
Mark Hunter
12:09
harping on, you know, some customer in, you know, some, you know, the person sitting in 4B or 18C or
whatever, they're just complaining about them. And you go, hold it. Wait a minute. That's not integrity.
That's not integrity. And so it really is about elevating people around you because surprisingly enough,
everybody has so much more potential, so much more potential. All you have to do is elevate them a
little bit. And it's amazing at how they will rise to the occasion.
Meridith Powell
12:40
Is it , uhm, What are some of the biggest mistakes salespeople make when they think they're acting with
integrity when technically they aren't acting with integrity? Because as I sit here and I read the book and
I was thinking about things, I just think about how much of my training did not position me to sell with
integrity.
Meridith Powell
13:03
how much of my reward and incentive programs did not position me to sell with integrity. So what are
some of the biggest mistakes I'm interested in that salespeople make, but also that organizations make?
Mark Hunter
18:25
Gee, you're talking about quarter end or year end? Yeah. You're talking about those times. Yeah. And as
we're recording this right at the end of the quarter, you're right. And that's one of the biggest ways
where integrity comes through. Now, here's the deal.
Mark Hunter
13:33
I know we all got to make a number. We have to make a number. But here's the thing. And you as a
leader, you're responsible for this. If the number is not going to be made, you have got to call it out. And
certainly for this, if there are games being played, and I came out of an industry where there were
games, there were literally fake orders placed. There were literally rail cars moving across the country
with product. The customer had no knowledge it was coming to them until a week or two later.
Meridith Powell
14:04
Wow.
Meridith Powell
14:05
Yeah. Oh, you talk about, I don't want to say scams, but just really bad, bad stuff. Here's the thing that
eventually comes back to bite you. And the sooner you as a salesperson or a sales leader,
Mark Hunter
14:20
call it out and say hey you know what we're not going to do this we are not going to do this you may fall
on your sword and you may take a hit in your commission one time but you will win long term and this is
what you have to realize sales managers you may have to go up the food chain say we're going to miss
this number and i know it's hard now here's the whole thing there
Mark Hunter
14:40
There is business that you probably can get, but you know what? Be upfront with the customer. Be
upfront with the customer. Hey, you know what? We need to get this order in now, this quarter. And
many times that's okay. But whatever you do, full disclosure, going up the food chain and full disclosure
to the customer, because otherwise you're going to wind up getting yourself into a hole. I remember I
had a customer who told me, he said,
Mark Hunter
15:09
I remember I was going in looking for some quarter end business and she made a comment to me. She
says, I know it's your quarter end. I know when it's quarter end for everybody and year end and so forth.
And there's companies that I stop buying from until I get a phone call from the vice president of sales or
even the CEO, because only then will I know I have the best deal. What is that? You got me kidding me.
Mark Hunter
15:33
You know, it's giving away the farm because unfortunately, the company and the sales team created an
environment like that.
Meridith Powell
15:42
So, you know, the thing is, I love what you said about sometimes the leader has got to go up the food
chain. But what if you work for one of those sales managers that isn't and you're feeling a lot of pressure
to hit? You know, you're not going to hit a quarterly number or something like that.
Meridith Powell
15:55
You know, that's a, I mean, it's kind of like a moral dilemma, right? I mean, you know, you've got to pay
your mortgage, you've got to feed your kids, you want to sell with integrity. Where does it kind of all
come together?
Mark Hunter
16:12
You ultimately got to quit. I'm going to call it out. I left corporate America because I was not getting along
with the president and the CEO of the company I was with. And I look back and it was one very heated
conversation that I had where there was a mistake that in fact, my department had made the mistake.
And, uh,
Mark Hunter
16:27
the president was making up a convoluted excuse because I was going to fall on my sword for it. I was
ready to fall on my sword for it. Hey, we're going to go. And he made up this convoluted excuse to try to
save me. And I left that office and I go, you know what? What else is he covering up? What else?
Mark Hunter
16:45
And it was at that moment that I set in motion that within six months I was gone from that company
because I was not going to work for an organization where there are games being played. Let me tell you
something. Integrity centered people are attracted to integrity centered organizations. And there's no
easy path. There are some.
Mark Hunter
17:07
It can be some tough times, but don't allow yourself to be compromised because once you start
compromising, this is again, parent-child relationship. Once the kid knows that they can get away with
something once, what do they do? They get away with it again and again and again and again, and it just
The belevates. We see this in fraud in business. Mark Hunterookkeeper that takes, you know, $100 gets
away with it, says, well, next time I can do $500. Then it goes $1,000. Then it goes $5,000. Then it goes
$10,000. It continues to escalate. You have to be able to hold the line on the little things because
ultimately they'll become the big things and you will fall eventually.
Meridith Powell
17:51
Yeah, you know, that's so true. When I used to work in banking, we used to have the best compliance
officer. And she always used to say that, you know, that people don't steal large amounts of money at
first. They have a kid that needs medicine and they can't pay for it. So they borrow $20 and they get
away with it and it goes further and further. It erodes. It definitely integrity is something that either
grows if you invest in it or you lose it. You know, you lose it little by little. little by little. But Mark, it
sounds like to really
Meridith Powell
18:26
sell with integrity to do anything with integrity you have to get really clear on your values first would that
be accurate
Mark Hunter
18:34
oh yeah you've got to be clear on your values you've got to be clear as to this is what I stand for this is
what I do this is what I don't do because otherwise you're right because then once you start slipping
once twice in my career I've been I've been asked to take over companies you know as CEOs both times
were was because of major embezzlement
Mark Hunter
18:53
And again, as we forensic auditors, I never heard the term forensic auditors, but believe me, in both
cases, we hired a forensic auditing company. And just what you described, it started out very small and
wound up being hundreds of thousands of dollars. And people don't wake up in the morning and say, I
want to cheat something. It just becomes this slow. So you've got to create this. And what does it mean?
There has to be accountability. If you are not willing to be held accountable, this is where
Mark Hunter
19:23
You know, if you're a CEO, it's your board of directors. If you're a VP of sales, it may be the other people
who report to you. If you are the chairman of the board, it may be others who you interact with who are
other chairs of other companies, of other organizations. You have to have an accountability group that is
willing to hold you because bad things happen when people run in darkness and it will always does.
Meridith Powell
19:55
So Mark, one of the things I really love about your work is that you kind of go the antithesis of what a lot
of other sales professionals do and say that it isn't always about closing. And you tell a great story in the
book about walking away from business when you needed the business, when what would have been
right for you would have been to close it. It wasn't right for the customer. Share that story with our
audience.
Mark Hunter
20:22
Yeah, there's several stories. In fact, you know what? I'm going to flip this around because there was one
that I did where I took an order for 10 years worth of supply of a particular item with a customer. And I
knew it was wrong. I knew it was wrong. And I'm sitting there going, but man, there's going to be a great
commission check. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard.
Mark Hunter
20:45
And I was kind of struggling. I was still kind of new with the account, so forth. So I went ahead and took
the order and driving back to the office. This is in the days when you went back to the office and actually
had to submit the order. Yeah. And I'm like, OK, I got to call him. I got to change. I walk back in and I
share. And suddenly I'm like I'm like King Sales. I'm like, you know, everybody's right. Yeah, this is
unbelievable. You just closed the biggest sale ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Hunter
21:13
And we wound up processing the order. The customer got this 10 years worth of inventory. And about
two months later, I got promoted. Now, I don't know if the promotion came as a result of that, but I
moved to a different area of the country. I got moved to Tennessee. Totally forgot about the customer.
Two years later, I'm sitting in a sales kickoff meeting. And this guy comes up to me and goes, hey, you're
Mark Conner, aren't you? Yeah. And he calls out the name of the customer.
Mark Hunter
21:44
And immediately I go, oh, no, he says, they don't like you. I can't believe the problems that you caused
for me as a result of leaving that much inventory with that customer. They had to write it down. They
had to liquidate it. It was a major expense to them. I don't think you should ever show your family. He
was I mean, he this person who took over the account after I left.
Mark Hunter
22:09
was not a happy camper because of what I had done. And it was right then that I really realized that, you
know what, Mark, you've got to, you've got to play the long game. Because again, I think integrity for
selling means that you play the long game and you don't close deals. You open relationships. You open
relationships because when you open relationships, and clearly in that case, I burned a few relationships.
Not good, not good.
Meridith Powell
22:38
Mark, it is hard to believe, but we are about at the end of this podcast and I always close with just two
questions and you can answer them in either order. One, how does our audience find out about you?
How do they find out about Integrity Selling? Where do they follow you? Get your information because
they need to do that. And the second is, what is your greatest piece of advice for people out there, sales
professionals, leaders, business owners, struggling to deal with the pace of change, the disruption
happening in the marketplace and turn all of this uncertainty to their competitive advantage?
Mark Hunter
23:06
Well, they got to listen to SalesLogic if they want to catch up with me, because that's how they catch up
with you. SalesLogic podcast right now. You can go out to the saleshunter.com. The book is Integrity for
Selling, and you can pick that up on Amazon or anywhere books are sold. The advice I tell the people
every morning you have a decision to make and it's will you choose to be able? Will you choose to
impact and influence each person you come in contact with?
Mark Hunter
23:35
And I take that in honor. If you can influence and impact people in a positive manner, you're going to be
able to come back and have another conversation with them tomorrow. To me, that's the center. That's
the core of integrity for selling.
Meridith Powell
23:50
I love that. I love that. Such great information. Mark, I really want to thank you for being on the show
today. Thank you for enlightening us how we can not only succeed more in sales, but we can enjoy the
process so much more than we do right now.
Meridith Powell
24:05
integrity first selling. So thank you for helping our team. Thank you for helping our audience. Thank you
for helping our listeners and listeners. We'll see you right back here next week for another episode of Ask
for Change. And remember, together, we're going to turn all of this uncertainty into your greatest
competitive advantage. I'll see you then.
