In this powerful episode of Ask for Change, leadership expert Meridith Elliott Powell sits down with Amy Lessinger—leadership powerhouse, strategist, transformation expert, and former President of RE/MAX Worldwide—to talk about the bold moves that reshape careers, organizations, and lives.
Amy’s journey is extraordinary: from real estate agent to building a nearly billion-dollar brokerage during the Great Recession, to leading one of the most recognized brands in real estate—and then making the courageous decision to walk away and build what’s next.
At the heart of this conversation is Amy’s Irreversible Step Framework—a five-step process designed to help you stop circling the truth, stop waiting for certainty, and start moving forward with clarity and momentum.
Transcript
Ask For Change: The Bold Move You Need To Own Your Life
Introduction 00:00 Change isn't just coming. It's already here. This is Ask for Change podcast, hosted by leadership expert Meredith Elliott Powell, brings you weekly conversations with leaders and experts who are redefining success in a world of disruption. Let's begin today's journey and turn uncertainty into your competitive advantage.
Meridith Powell 00:20 Let's turn uncertainty into your competitive advantage. I'm Meredith Elliott Powell, your host, and today we are going to have a really powerful conversation about what it really takes to really navigate today's uncertainty. I've got a pretty impressive guest. I have the Amy Lessinger with me today. Let me tell you, she is a powerhouse in her own right in the areas of leadership, strategy, and what I think is so important in today's marketplace, and that is transformation. She has had an incredible journey, everything from starting out as a real estate agent to building her own brokerage to over a billion, please note I said a billion in sales, to ultimately becoming the president of RE/MAX. I mean, welcome to the show, Amy. What a background. We could spend our entire conversation right there.
Amy Lessinger 01:13 Thank you for having me, Meredith. I'm so excited about our conversation. We've got a lot in common and I just can't wait for the value we'll bring to the audience.
Meridith Powell 01:23 So I want to start a little bit with your background because it is so impressive. I mean, you start out as a real estate agent. Was that something you always wanted to do? And then did you ever see yourself as president of REMAX? I mean, that's quite a ladder to have climbed.
Amy Lessinger 01:41 It was such an incredible journey and no, to answer your question, I did not see the entire trajectory that is called being open to life and navigating lots of uncertainty in my career. But when I started out, I had just graduated from college. My degree is in speech pathology and audiology. So I graduated from the School of Medicine of all things.
Amy Lessinger 02:05 And I just knew that I would not go on and continue with that because I'm really driven, really goal oriented. And although I enjoyed it, it just moved a little bit slower than I think I had patience for. My
dad was a real estate developer and he said, why don't you try real estate? And I did. I said, I'll give it three years just like I would have my master's degree. I poured myself into it. I fell in love with the industry and I fell in love with the business and I never looked back.
Amy Lessinger 02:34 I just loved it. And from there, we built a really successful team in sales. Then we built that near billion dollar brokerage during the middle of the Great Recession where the market had collapsed by over half. And that, I think, was a big place where I was forged in the fire and really learned about how to take uncertainty, how to take the cards you're dealt and turn them into something that the market could never break.
Meridith Powell 03:08 Oh, that, that right there is powerful. Cause I think that is an interesting note. I want to make sure the audience doesn't miss it is the fact that you did this in the middle of probably, you know, um, I was a banker before I started doing what I do, but I've got to say 2008 was, it's the toughest time I've ever known in the finance. And there have been tough times. I mean, I started loaning money at 17%. So, you know, there have been tough times, but that but you did it right in what has to be the toughest market ever. And did you find yourself that you were somebody who leaned into that? Like when the, when the bottom fell out, were you charged up or were you freaked out? Like where does it kind of fall on that?
Amy Lessinger 03:51 Totally freaked out. I mean, we had a $24,000 a month lease of our office space. That doesn't include, you know, the staff and everything else. I mean, so I was looking at agents walking out the door saying, I just don't think that I can stay in the business and thinking, how am I going to do this without, you know, us going down with the ship too? And so I made a decision. And I think that's where the irreversible step framework was built.
Amy Lessinger 04:20 I made a decision and I said, I'm going all in. I am not giving up. I am not going to collapse with the market. These people need me and I'm going to teach them and help them understand how to win no matter what the market is throwing at them. While everybody else was kind of running around being scared, you know, I got into action and said, look, if I can teach people who historically were high producers and very, very successful, how to be successful in this climate and win, then we will win. And that's exactly what we did. We just built it one agent at a time, one group at a time, where they found their skill set was obsolete for what they were facing. And if we could just retool the skill set and help them win, one after the other after the other. That's how we built it. But I took an irreversible step in terms of, you know, I'm not filing bankruptcy. I'm not shuttering the business. I'm going to move forward and I'm in it now. Let's figure out how to make it work.
Meridith Powell 05:24 You know, you just said something really powerful and that was that you, and I'm curious how important you think this is, but you said, I've made a decision that these people needed me. And this whole idea that you seem to have taken the focus off yourself and your own fear and put it out on to other people. How important is that? Because I want to talk in a moment about your irreversible step framework, but how important is that decision? first click?
Amy Lessinger 05:52 I think it's everything in leadership. You know, so often, you know, leadership gets confused with titles, responsibilities, roles. And I really fully believe that your measure of success as a leader is by how many leaders you develop yourself and, you know, helping people, shaping people to be better than they are. When they come to you has always just been a lifelong passion. And so I knew and I'm just driven to serve in that capacity. I just believe leadership is really about service. It's not about you. It's not about your title. It's not about, you know, all the accolades. Literally for me, what fires me up is when you can transform somebody's trajectory and help them achieve at levels that they've never achieved before.
Meridith Powell 06:46 So what made you, you know, you build this, you're leading 140,000 agents, you take this irreversible step, eventually the market turns around, things, you know, things grow. What made you decide to, I mean, you sort of, you're kind of sitting in the catbird seat, you kind of have it all. And yet, in January of 2025, you walk away.
Amy Lessinger 07:13 Yeah, well, there was a step between. So when I built the brokerage during the Great Recession, it was amazing. It was brain candy. I wasn't leading 140,000 agents yet.
Amy Lessinger 07:25 So it was, you know, that was an incredible time. I built this amazing business, yet I found myself unfulfilled, found myself kind of burned out, found myself thinking, what's next? Yet also guilty because you're thinking you've got it all. You've got a very profitable business. You have, you know, collectively we had number one market share and we built it and you might want something else.
Amy Lessinger 07:51 And the answer to that is yes, because I believe that when you are truly alive and awake in your life, that you're called forward. That it's like, yes, there is something else. Yes, there is more. And yes, you have the right to pursue it. So I decided to sell the business. But I'll tell you, it took me three years to do it. And I held on too long.
Amy Lessinger 08:13 I held on too long. I didn't know who I was without it, Meredith, like so many people. We are what we do. We are the title. We are the accolades. And so that's a huge piece of also what shaped me going forward and who I am now. So I sold the business and that's what opened the door to the path to becoming the president of Remax. A good friend of mine called me and said, would you ever consider coming to headquarters? and being on our leadership team. And I said, I don't think so. And so we had many conversations and I started out leading the West, then I was promoted to oversee the United States and then ultimately promoted to the president of REMAX Worldwide. And so it was just such an incredible journey. And I am so glad that I did it because it truly, truly rounded out, you know, my skill set in terms of I really feel like I understand what corporate America could learn from entrepreneurs and what entrepreneurs could learn from corporate America. You know, it is it is a yin and yang that both stand to benefit by, you know, opening and really understanding, you know, where some of the gaps are.
Amy Lessinger 09:33 And so, you know, yes, I heard that voice once again was, you know what, this chapter is complete. It's time for you to build something new and something exciting and, you know, return back to my drive and my true passion and, to help others and organizations achieve at levels that they never thought they could achieve. So, you know, yes, quite the ride.
Meridith Powell 10:00 Yeah. So, you know, it's, I do think that I love what you said about the importance of corporate and entrepreneurship, because I walked both sides too. And it's, and I didn't last as long in corporate as I did in entrepreneurship, because I was, I was driving, I wanted to, I wanted back on the other side, but I was so glad I had the corporate experience because it just gives you such an understanding and the importance both have value and both have their limitations that they can definitely learn. So it's time to close that chapter on president of REMAX. And did you know, had you already created the framework of the irreversible step or did you just walk out the doors of REMAX and think, I'm open and I'll see what comes next.
Amy Lessinger 10:45 It was more I'm open. However, the more I started tapping into, you know, the passion and the themes and overall, how have I helped people and organizations achieve their next level? The framework has been there since day one.
Amy Lessinger 11:08 It's just that you don't realize it until you have a moment to be able to look back and say, now, wait a minute, what is that unique problem that I have solved kind of over and over again? And so through doing that work, the framework was born, but I think it was born a long time ago.
Meridith Powell 11:25 So let's talk about, let's just talk about what you mean by the irreversible step, why the step matters and what the framework is.
Amy Lessinger 11:35 I believe that transformation lives in that decision point where you decide who you're going to be next, what you want and where you're going. And you take a step that makes going back impossible. And when I say that, people get mad scared and go oh my gosh that sounds so scary it's like you could go back anybody can go back right the deal is you don't want to because you're somebody else and so you know it's it's did I want to go be a speech pathologist? No, actually I chose to go ahead and be an independent contractor and give up a steady potential paycheck and lots of benefits and things like that and go forge my own way and be straight commission based. That's an irreversible step. When I signed the contract to sell the brokerage, I didn't know what I was going to do next, but I knew that I wasn't serving myself.
Amy Lessinger 12:37 or the business in terms of its ability to get to its next level by staying in that space where I was like, you know, I think this chapter is complete and it needs to go on to its next level. So I signed the contract without knowing what I was going to do next. That's an irreversible step. You're not going to unsell the company. Right.
Amy Lessinger 12:56 And then when I decided to step away from Remax, you know, it's sending that resignation letter that I knew that my passion and this next chapter of my work is right here. And so those are the kind of steps that I'm talking about where you've made them with thought. But the other thing is that I've seen too many people stay stuck for way too long. And that's why I built the framework. And so the framework is five simple steps. It starts with the truth.
Amy Lessinger 13:26 First off, I think we hide from that far too often. We tell ourselves, oh, it's not that bad. We should be grateful. I just need time off, et cetera. That's just your life calling. It literally is your life calling you forward. And so the first step is tell the truth. What do I really want? What is this kind of nagging voice inside of me trying to tell me that I really kind of already know?
Amy Lessinger 13:52 But so many people are jailed because they won't allow the truth to actually surface. So that's the first one. The next one, next step is explore what's possible. We think in either or all the time. I can either have my incredibly successful business or I have to take a step back and I'll have less.
Amy Lessinger 14:14 We believe that in order to have the life that we want, we have to give up the one that we have. And it's not true. So by exploring what's possible, you might uncover and surface things that you never thought you could actually do. And it gets your brain working in a much different capacity instead of protecting, saving, guarding you from what it perceives to be danger because it's changed. It's just your brain trying to keep you safe. That's all it is. And the next one is, you know, make a decision. What direction are you going? It's not the whole decision, but it's like, do you know what this next chapter is? And so is it, I'm going to pursue opening that business that I wanted to do. I'm going to pursue a career change. I'm going to go ahead and move across the country. If that's what I want to do, what direction are you going? So where are we headed? And then we build a bridge.
Amy Lessinger 15:11 Because one thing I know about high performers is they love to build a plan and sometimes they won't move unless they have a perfect plan. I'm very against that. I don't believe that you can have a perfect plan. No plan is perfect. But a very simple, elegant plan that shows you how you get from where you are to where you want to go, that's the key to getting you in momentum. Because once you decide and once you start building the skeleton of a plan, you've been here before, Meredith, Everything just starts to fall into place. And then you take your irreversible step. Now you're ready. Now you're like, okay, I know, I know what I need to do. And now I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to choose to take a step that makes going back a lot more difficult. So maybe it's a public declaration of what you're going to do. Maybe you sign the contract to sell your home. Maybe you, you know, maybe you send the resignation letter, whatever it is that you feel comfortable with and that you want to move forward with is, you know, the irreversible steps pretty personal to people. Yeah. It makes that transformation actually embodied. Yeah. It's one thing to say you want to change. It's another to change.
Meridith Powell 16:26 It's such a... I love that you've built a framework because I don't know if you found this in your work, but I'm just wondering, you seem to have an unbelievable level of self-awareness. Like, You really take the time to...Embrace the fact that I think this is done. I think this chapter is over. I don't think most people have that. I mean, I was just talking with a friend last night I had dinner with, and I said, you know, we're so set up in society to blame everything and everybody else for why we are where we are. And that's, you know, all you have to do is watch the news. I mean, everything going on is politics. It's one party's fault or the other party's fault. Everything in your life is the fact that, you know, you've been fed the wrong food or you've done the wrong this. It's never your fault. And that's a trap because the only person who can change it is, is you. So how does, where do you start with people? Either whether it's, I love this idea of, of the truth, which is the hardest pill to swallow, right? But talk a little bit more. And I'm curious, I mean, you obviously work with organizations as well as individuals. I imagine that's the same step with them. I mean, they have to swallow this pill or dive into this idea of the truth so that they can start to make the transformation.
Amy Lessinger 17:37 Absolutely. So it's what's true for the organization and what's true for the individual. And I think, you know, sometimes people say something out loud that they've never given themselves permission to say for so many reasons. You know, I hate my job, even though they have the best job in the world. Yeah. I mean, we're taught that's not okay. That's just not okay. Or I have a relationship that isn't working and I don't know what to do with it. Saying that out loud for people is really tough. Or I'm having a health crisis and I've been having a health crisis for a while because I've been shoving it down, pushing it away, continuing on the stress diet that I've been binging on for decades, and I don't know how to shut it off. So, you know, for the individual, it's telling the truth is liberating. It's also the same for organizations. They actually know what's true, but often much sooner before the individuals. Sales are down. - Yeah. - Culture is a challenge. Operations are out of sorts. So organizations often know a lot sooner, but once you trotted in the room, because there's also lots of politics.
Amy Lessinger 19:03 And so, you know, getting the heart of the truth surfaced in an organization can sometimes be a little bit challenging because safety is an issue. So many cultures, you know, you're punished for saying something.
Meridith Powell 19:18 Yeah. And I also think that I also think that walking through this idea of the truth and dealing with it. Like I'm, I'm working with a company right now. And the biggest challenge I see is they're willing to admit the truth, but not leadership's role in that truth. And I think until, I mean, I'd be curious your take on this until you own your piece. Like if I'm unhappy with my job, it's not my company's fault. I'm unhappy with my job. If I'm in a, if I'm in a relationship that isn't working, it's not the other individual's fault that it isn't working. Like, I need to own my role in that. Is that accurate?
Amy Lessinger 19:56 100% Meredith, I mean, completely. And, you know, the moment that you understand extreme ownership is also incredibly empowering and incredibly liberating. I just look at it I learned this from a pretty early age. I had an older friend. She was a great friend of mine and actually still is. I was younger. I was like 20 and she's like 30. She was listening to Dr. Wayne Dyer. She gave me the tapes and I started listening to them. I've infused this stuff in my brain plus my parents wouldn't let me get away with it. Ever since I was little, they were like, and whose fault is that? you know, it would be your fault. So, so once you start to understand extreme ownership, it is so empowering. Yeah. You blame other people, you lose all of your power and all of your accountability. And frankly, huge chunks of your happiness. It's so much better to just own it. I mean, it's just, it's so much better. Even if you, Something happened to you and you didn't do it and somebody did it to you you still are in charge of how you respond, how you react, and how you internalize it. You still have all of your agency intact. And when you start blaming other people, you just look, I'm sorry, you look powerless.
Meridith Powell 21:28 I could not agree more. Years ago, I wrote a book called Own It, Redefining Responsibility Stories of Power, Purpose, and Freedom. And the publisher called me and said, you can't
Meridith Powell 21:37 you can't write a book about responsibility. And that's why I said, nobody wants to be responsible. So it was probably great advice, but, but I could not agree with you more. Once I, once I realized that things in my life were my fault and, and, it was my path to freedom. It was all of a sudden, I can control me so I could begin to turn, you know, I could turn things around.
Amy Lessinger 22:07 Total liberation. And you're exactly right. In organizations, you see somebody leaves a company and oh my God, all they do the next six months is blame the person who left. Oh God, what a mess. What are this? What are that? And it's like, Oh, stop it. All that does is it just seems like you're over your skis and you can't actually handle the job in front of you. Right. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't work. And so I love that you brought this up because it's something that's not talked about often enough. Yeah. And I think the benefits for a leader to really just have that extreme ownership and really understand that they stand in their power when they own their what they've been dealt, whether they did it or they didn't do it. The blame thing is just a low power move.
Meridith Powell 22:54 Yeah, I was on today with a young leader who he needed some counsel. He's got to make a tough, he has to have a tough conversation with his team. And his president's been fired. He's second in command. He's got to go out and say, we've had a bad year. You guys have to change next year. And the way we started it off was I said, the very first thing you need to do is say, you know, it's no secret. We've had a tough year. And I said, apologize. Like just own the fact that the year has been bad and it's your fault that it's been bad and then talk about where it's going to go. I said, the team will have so much respect for the fact of the fact that, because at the end of the day, you are the leader. It is your responsibility.
Amy Lessinger 23:36 Well, and how do you expect them to own their bad year if you didn't own it?
Meridith Powell 23:40 Exactly.
Amy Lessinger 23:42 You can't just say, you know, you had a bad year. We had a bad year. It's a team.
Meridith Powell 23:46 Right. Right. Yeah.
Amy Lessinger 23:48 You know, one person, you know, didn't lose the Super Bowl, so to speak.
Meridith Powell 23:56 That's true. But you can't have a coach out there yelling at the players if the coach doesn't own. What happened?
Amy Lessinger 24:02 We lost not you lost yeah that's right that's right
Meridith Powell 24:07 I want to talk a moment about because you're you I want to talk a moment about burnout and and I mentioned this before we started i mean burnout is it is it is at the highest I've ever seen it I mean I think gartner I think it was gartner that released a report but said four out of five employees are overwhelmed burned out and do not feel like they can handle anymore less than 14 of employees feel like
Meridith Powell 24:31 their company is giving them the strategies and the skills they need to handle the amount and the pace of change that is coming at them. So I think one of the most important things that we can do in 2026 is help people manage burnout and overwhelm. But I'd love to get your thoughts on that on burnout. I imagine it's always been there, but it seems like they've gone on steroids lately. And what are the strategies and thoughts on really how to help people navigate that?
Amy Lessinger 25:01 You know, I think, you know, first of all, it's a, it's absolutely real and it is, it is, I believe that burnout is not a capacity problem, that it's actually a truth problem in terms of most leaders. They're not burned out because they can't handle it. They're leaders because they can, but they're burned out because they're doing too much of the stuff that doesn't matter. Yeah. And so many, this is very true in organizations. It's also true in, you know, personal situations, but adding more, adding more, adding more is a tax. Because the more you add, the more you have to manage, the more you have to track, the more you have to keep doing. And organizations are excellent at adding because it shows we're doing something right. But they're not very good at subtracting. And so that's why I don't think it's a capacity problem. It's it's the fact that you're just doing too much of the things that don't matter.
Amy Lessinger 26:07 Same thing with individuals. You know, does your, you know, this is no judgment, but does your child need to be in four different sports? Right. We're just exhausted shuttling to and from and all the things. Can we pick the one that's the favorite and focus there and have more quality over quantity? That's just an example. So, you know, certainly no judgment there, but at the end of the day, what really fuels you, what really, really matters? And in most organizations, what really matters is moving the needle. Well, how do we move the needle? If you can answer that question and really focus on two or three big rocks and not 25 of them, You're going to move the needle.
Meridith Powell 26:50 Yeah, so well said. We were having the kids over a couple of weeks for dinner. My nephew was coming too, and I was running around like a crazy person cleaning the house, trying to cook. And my husband looked at me and he said, you need to focus on sitting down, spending time at dinner, and being present in this. He said, whether the laundry is done at 4 o'clock in the afternoon or whether it isn't done until Monday, it does not matter. And I was so... focus on what didn't matter. He said, let's just order pizza. Like it doesn't, I was so focused on the wrong things and completely stressing myself out.
Amy Lessinger 27:26 It's so easy, but it's so easy to slide into that.
Meridith Powell 27:30 Yeah.
Amy Lessinger 27:31 And number one, you have a great husband. Yeah. Number two, you owned it. You went, Oh, you heard it. And instead of, you know, you might, you maybe were like, Oh, you know, irritating, but at the end of the day, you know, you owned it and you, and you course corrected. Yeah. That's the other thing. I'm just so big on people's agency and the fact that they can make decisions about what's happening to them and around them. And so that's a big piece of burnout. That is a huge piece of burnout is where have you allowed your boundaries to Where are you just not even having any boundaries of yourself first and foremost? And then where are you not having boundaries in your role about truly being totally committed to what you know needs to happen versus what's the nice to happen?
Meridith Powell 28:25 Yeah.
Amy Lessinger 28:26 Because I believe that you're great leaders. They already know what's off. They already know. And, where they get stuck is the sense of, well, I can't take that to my boss and say no. Well, is that true? What else is possible? How could you? You know, we tend to just go to this. I can't do that thing. And so your brain says, oh, right, I can't. But if you start asking your brain better questions about how can I, how could I make that work? How could I adjust this? Your brain, it'll work on it and you'll get a much better solution and a much better answer because I promise you this, your boss, your boss is going to love a conversation where you walk in the room and say, you know what? I've been thinking.
Amy Lessinger 29:14 These are our three top goals. And these are the five things that are compromising us achieving those goals. And here's what I'd like to do for the next 30 days. I want to center the team around these three goals and set these down for 30 days and see where we are. How do you feel about that? If I'm a boss, I'm loving that conversation.
Meridith Powell 29:34 All day long. You know, I think, I think one of the most powerful things you said is like really understanding, especially in, in work, what moves the needle. But I think it's also goes to your personal life too. Like, like my husband catching me, what moves the needle? It isn't a really nice dinner on the table. What moves the needle is, did I have quality conversations with the family that night? Did we laugh? And did we build the memories? Those are, you know, those are the needles that, um, you know that that need to be moved and i love the fact that you say people have to own their own i was working with a group this morning and i was saying i can't you know the chances that that corporate will make it as chaotic in 26 as they did in 25 pretty good if you maybe put money on it right now i would say they probably are going to but it doesn't mean it has to be chaotic at your level you have the ability to control that and to do something about that.
Amy Lessinger 30:30 Absolutely i agree And don't buy into that nonsense that you don't. Right. Then you're giving away your power instead of standing in your power. Two very different things.
Meridith Powell 30:40 Two very different. It is hard to believe, but we are at the end of this podcast. I feel like we have so much more to talk about. I always like to end with two questions and you can answer them either way, either one. One, how do people find out more about you, learn your story, find about the irreversible step framework and the incredible work you do with individuals and leaders? And as you think about the uncertainty in the marketplace, what's your best piece of advice for any listener out there who is struggling to turn uncertainty to competitive advantage?
Amy Lessinger 31:08 I think, first of all, they can find me on amylessinger.com or theirreversiblestep.com. They'll find I'm on all the social channels. And, you know, I've got lots of free tools and things like that to help leaders and individuals start to navigate what they're facing. In addition, oh my gosh, what was the last question?
Meridith Powell 31:29 That's okay. That's what I'm right here for, is that your best piece of advice for anybody out there listening, struggling to turn uncertainty to competitive advantage. Uncertainty never built anybody. Decisions do. So, so,
Amy Lessinger 31:43 Uncertainty never built anybody. Decisions do. So, so, Staying stuck in uncertainty and milling around about the actual problem doesn't solve it. So that starts by asking better questions of what is possible here. How could we ask those two questions? And that's going to help lead you to making a decision. But by God, make one, because if I would have not made a decision during the Great Recession, I would have gone down like so many people did and no judgment. So many people, you know, they just could not help their circumstances. And no matter what they did, they weren't going to get out of the hole they were in. But nonetheless, decide.
Meridith Powell 32:22 Yeah, I love that. I love that. Thank you so much, Amy. This has been such a powerful conversation. I loved it, Mary. I loved learning more about you and more about the irreversible step. And everybody, we are going to wrap this up, put it in a podcast. You can listen to it over and over again. Find out more about Amy. Find out more about her work and her program. We'll see you right back here next week for another episode of Ask for Change, the place where you learn everything you need to know to turn this uncertainty into your greatest competitive advantage.
